Recording artist DDG joins Brittany to talk about how his success as a vlogger on YouTube helped him break into the music business. Then Brittany chats with Tuma Basa, YouTube’s Director of Black Music & Culture, about how the platform can help artists reach audiences.
When DDG was 17, he received a $200 check from YouTube for his vlogs. Realizing if he dedicated himself to vlogging, he could make a living from it, DDG quit his retail job. Now, DDG has millions of subscribers on his channel and is a rising recording artist. In the season finale, DDG chats with Brittany about vlogging and how YouTube helped him break into the music business. Then Brittany chats with YouTube’s Director of Black Music & Culture, Tuma Basa, who has dedicated his career to amplifying black voices. Tuma talks about how YouTube can help artists reach audiences and the expanding role the platform plays in the music industry. Some participants have been compensated for their involvement in this series.
KEY TOPICS & TIME STAMPS
RESOURCES
SOCIAL HANDLES
CREDITS
The Upload is a podcast by YouTube produced in partnership with National Public Media. Our Executive Producers are Brianna LaFleur and Erica Osher. Supervising Producer Shannon Boerner. Our Lead Producer is Theresa Avila; Editing and Engineering by Alie Kilts; Production Assistance by Gurjit Kaur with support from Maddy Weinberg. Our logo was created by Jen Grottle and our music is by TimaLikesMusic. Hosted by Brittany Luse.
Featuring: DDG
[0:00]
Brittany: When I was growing up, watching the latest music videos meant being glued to your TV all day.
[SFX]
TV turning on
TV background
Remote click
I used to rush home after school everyday to catch my favorite boy bands, battle it out for the number one spot on TRL. And I had to be on time too, because if I missed the bus, there was a chance I'd miss J.C. My favorite member of NSYNC dancing across my screen. And I couldn't risk that.
[SFX]
Remote click
[music in]
You might laugh, but parking in front of the TV was the primary way for fans to stay in the loop. I was still taping songs off the radio in middle school. It was another time. We couldn't just stream our favorite videos on demand. There was no streaming, no social media. And of course, no YouTube.
[theme music up]
[1:00]
I'm your host, Brittany Luse. And this is The Upload: The Rise of the Creator Economy, a special podcast by YouTube, produced in partnership with National Public Media. In this final episode of the season, we're going to look at the relationship between YouTube and you guessed it, music.
YouTube has completely changed the way that we digest music: from how we discover new artists to watching the latest music video premieres. Today, we're zeroing in on a crucial element for the success of any musical artist or for that matter, any creator. And that is: how do you build and maintain a fan base?
[music out]
You see, today's musical artists have turned to streaming and social media as a way to communicate directly with fans.
[music in]
To understand what tactics artists use to promote their work on YouTube, I spoke with rapper and artist DDG.
[ARCHIVAL]
“What’s good youtube, y’all know I’m on tour right now.”
“But yeah, um, yeah I was valedictorian man. You know why? Because I did all my homework.”
“Realistically, I only dated like a Sagittarius and a Libra. And I honestly feel like this zodiac, it’s really real.”
[2:00]
DDG is a musician and entertainer with an extraordinary story. He went from creating vlogs to signing his first record deal in just a few short years. And his song, Moonwalking in Calabasas Remix (feat. BlueFace) made the Billboard Hot 100 chart. As of today, the music video has more than 65 million views on YouTube.
I enjoyed talking to him so much, and I can't wait for you to hear his journey in entertainment. Oh. But one more thing. I called DDG up while he was in between studio sessions, so you might hear some of his team in the background. Okay. Without further adieu, let's hear from DDG.
[music out]
Brittany: DDG welcome. It is so good to talk to you.
DDG: Hi, how are you doing?
Brittany: Well, good. Thank you. I'm so excited to meet you and talk to you cause actually I'm from Michigan too.
DDG: Oh, that’s what’s up.
[3:00]
Brittany: I heard you’re from Pontiac, so um that’s not too far from where I grew up, and it’s just really good to meet you. So uh, you started your YouTube channel not that long ago actually in 2015. Talk to us about your early days on Youtube.
DDG: I was just, honestly, I was just having fun. I just like creating. Like a lot of people think I, I started YouTube to do music, but that was never really the plan. It was just, I was just having fun and I, you know, it became like a job and a hobby to me, so I just kept it going. You know, when you do YouTube, you can turn it into anything really.
Brittany: So, I've watched some of your videos and, um, the one before you went to go do that fight that you did, and you just started off eating like spaghetti, talking about how many showers you took that day, like what your coach said to you. Um, it was so engaging, even though you were just sharing basically every little detail of your day. What's the video that you put up that you were like, there's no way people are gonna be interested in this?
[4:00]
DDG: What I do is, my, my YouTube channel was really like a storyline. So, it's like, you know, if I, I make, I make a 10 minute video of me sitting in the bed and just talk to my phone for 10 minutes, upload it, and then it gets 400, 500 thousand views. It's really just about how interested they is in my storyline, or what chapter I'm in, in my, in my life and vlog in at the moment.
Brittany: You know, that makes a lot of sense to me. You don’t have to always be doing these crazy stunts to get people’s attention. Just sitting in your bed, and sharing the details of your life can be interesting to viewers. And each video, like you said, is like the next chapter in your life. So in a way, your YouTube channel kinda functions like an autobiographical novel.
DDG: Yeah.
Brittany: But, I want to go back to the start of your story. In our pre-interview, you mentioned that you quit your first retail job after receiving $200 from YouTube. Talk to me about that moment. And what made you decide to quit?
[5:00]
DDG: The 200 made me quit cause I'm like, damn, like if I could post this much video — so this is before I really got into daily vlogging — if I only posted these many videos, and got these many views and made $200, imagine how big I can make it.
I can make this monthly check or I can move my momma out, and I can get her to her own place and I can help my family. You know what I mean? Like I was thinking like that. So if I like, I'm like if I put my full dedication into this, I know that 200 gonna turn to 400, next month turn into 700, and then it just turned into thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars to the point where I was just financially stable to just do whatever I want to do.
Brittany: How old were you by the way, when you made this decision to leave your job and focus on YouTube and make that your living?
DDG: I think that was around 17. And then from there, moving on to LA, I was 19. So it took me about two years to really lock onto YouTube, and, you know, get enough money for me to just fully chase my dreams.
[6:00]
Brittany: I mean, that's still pretty quick though. I mean think about how young you were to make that decision to be like, okay, I'm going to focus a hundred percent on YouTube. Like what made you so confident about that decision at that age?
DDG: I was confident just because I was making five figures a month in college. And in college students are supposed to be broke. You know what I mean? That's —
Brittany: Yeah, you’re supposed to study.
DDG: Yeah, you’re supposed to just be studying. You’re supposed to be getting the swipe card to go get your food. Like you’re supposed to not, like you’re really not —
Brittany: Totally.
DDG: Yeah. It's no real like, nobody's in college to make money. They're in college to get a career. Then it got to a point where I missed class for three weeks straight, and I got me, like, three viral videos that made tons and tons of money. And, um, yeah, I was like, man, I can, I can do what I want to do.
Brittany: So is music something that you were always interested in or was it something that kind of came about naturally as you started creating in general?
[7:00]
DDG: I always been interested in music. My dad was an engineer back in Pontiac, and, uh, we had our own little home studio. So like me and my brothers would play in the studio. And I was always around different types of music influences, and I was just heavy into music. And then I, I was doing like, I was blowing up on YouTube.
I was doing diss tracks on YouTube, and they were blowing up like crazy. And I'm like, man, I want to just try to do music for real. Cause I I'm, I'm in love with this, with, we're creating music. And then from there, um, I just went ahead and, uh, focused on music.
Brittany: So it’s something that you grew up in, just having in your household. I mean, very few people grow up with a home studio, so you were really exposed not just to music, but just the process of creation from a really young age.
DDG: Yeah, I was all, I was all around music. It was like, like a local thing.
[8:00]
So, um, you know, just being around my dad, seeing him engineer everybody, going in there with my brothers, making little songs together. Like it's a computer. I don't know where it’s at now, but I got songs when I was like six and it is —
Brittany: Wait, wait what were you talking about in your songs at six?
DDG: It was like little kids stuff, you know what I mean? Like, stay in school type of thing. You know, it was like little kid songs, but it was, we had like 10 of them.
Brittany: There's an album somewhere in that, I think. If you can find that computer, you definitely have an album's worth of content.
DDG: Yeah, that’d be fire.
Brittany: Um, so, you know, you say you were making, um, vlogs for about two years before transitioning to making music and also coming out to LA it sounds like. Why was that the right time for you to transition from the content that you started off making? Like really focusing on music, the way that you're focusing on music now
[9:00]
DDG: Um, I mean, I started really taking music serious around like 2017, but I was still doing YouTube, and I was still like, you know, more leaning towards YouTube. But then it got really real when I, um, I dropped a song called “Arguments,” and it went gold and it was like an R&B song. And it was actually about a relationship that I had on YouTube.
Brittany: Wow.
DDG: So, um, yeah, I ended up getting signed. I ended up getting a record deal off that song. So that’s when it really became real. I'm like, man, these people just gave me all this money, and they believe in me. And I, and I, you know, I got all these different records that I got to make and all this and all this, and it became a real life job. So, um, I just invested my time fully into it, and then I, you know, I ended up getting me another hit.
Brittany: And it seems like they kept on going. You know so many people when they start off in the music industry, they're coming to LA with like, you know, their car, you know, like Pro Tools and a dream, you know what I mean?
[10:00]
Not everybody starts off in the music industry already being successful at something else. Do you think that the success that you had on YouTube and that platform, and, like, the audience that you had on YouTube, um, like I wonder how it made you approach the music industry and your music career differently.
DDG: it made me approach it in more of a serious manner. I didn't want to play with it. I feel like every move that I made was calculated. Everything that I did was like planned out. I knew I needed to make these people believe that I, I'm really an artist. I feel like anybody that has a big following on YouTube can do music and pull a million and millions of views. It's just about if the music is good, is that going to make them stick? You know what I mean? Is it actually going to turn into a real career?
So like me, myself, I know I make great music. I study it. You know what I mean? I, I, I listened to other people. I get advice. Like, you know what I mean? I'm just perfecting my craft, and I know people love my music. So, I feel like launching my YouTube definitely gave me the looks.
[11:00]
And it was just about my good music making them stick and, and, you know, stay on that music journey with me. So, I feel like I did that pretty good.
Brittany: I wonder, like what is, what has the reaction been like from fans who were with you from those early days? You know, you say that they like, they want to see you win. Like, have any of them shared messages with you saying that, you know, they watched you way back when, and they love your music now. Like what has the response been from your earliest fans?
DDG: A lot of people telling me I used to watch you since I was 14. I'm like, wow. And they'd be grown. You know what I mean? I've been on YouTube for six, for six years. So if you started, when I, well, if you started watching me at my beginning, then, you know, if you're 15, you're 21 now. So it's like, ah, just to, I just see people just so shocked to know that it's really me. And, uh, when they see me in person and in the comments, they just show a lot of love.
[12:00]
Brittany: You know, also too, as you’re becoming well-known and developing fans for your music, and like you said, crossing over into the music industry, like in a real way, um, they probably feel like they know you, and they feel invested in your time. And, and also too, you still give them like all that behind the scenes content, you're sharing with them, um, on your journey as you continue to be more and more successful, like how important is it to have that kind of behind the scenes content, where they see you at an award show and they see you at home and they see you, um, you know, going to do an MMA fight? Like how important is it to have that behind the scenes content as well?
DDG: I feel like it, it’s important because it gives your fans another aspect. You know, music is really just through your ears and people listening, but when you show them an actual visual. Like it's no, it's not too many songs that blow up without a visual. You know, you can put it that way.
[13:00]
So I feel like displaying just a regular vlog, and showing your personality can easily make like somebody just like you 10 times more or feel more, feel more like attached to you when you make it. You know what I mean? It felt like, oh, I watched him get to this point. So, it’s like, I feel like a lot of my fans, you know, have that privilege of knowing that they watched me get to this point that I'm at right now. So I feel like vlogging stuff like that is important. Its memories.
Brittany: Do you go back and watch some of your old vlogs and just think about how much you’ve grown?
DDG: Yeah, I do it all the time. I go watch it and I, um, you know, I go look at what, what I used to film, and what I used to go through, and where I used to go and stuff like that. And it’s just, you know, it's refreshing to watch them. I watch it, and I'm like, “Damn. I'm kinda entertaining.” I see, I see why people you know...cause when I make my videos, I don’t watch them over or like when I, after I edit it, I don't rewatch it or nothing. Like, I just, I just post it. Like, I already lived it, so I don't need to watch it. But later on when I go back and watch, it’s like, this is nostalgic.
[14:00]
Brittany: It's nice that you, you know, as you get older, that only becomes more and more valuable to have stuff like that from when you were younger. You know, you're so prolific. Like you know, you’ve been posting for years, you’ve made so much music, you know, as you’ve become a musician and that's been your main focus like you are always, always, always, I even think about like Moonwalking in Calabasas. Like, I’m waiting for my remix from Moonwalking in Calabasas because you put out so many. Like, obviously, you’re really busy. How do you keep that momentum as a creator to always be making something?
DDG: I feel like just being a creator, it, it’s just, once you get in a groove, you got to think about one topic and turn it into 30 different topics. You know what I mean? So if you gotta, as long as you have a base of what you thinking, and what you want, what you want to talk about, you can stem so many different things from it.
[15:00]
And then it, it just makes creating different types of like, like if you listen to artists’s albums, and they made the album like the same year, you can tell that, you know, they kind of talking about the same thing kind of just in the sense, because, you know, that's what they was like going through at the time,
Brittany: It’s like a theme.
DDG: But it's like one theme, and you can make 30 different videos or you can make, you know, 10 different songs off that one little theme. So, um, I feel like that's what makes it a lot easier to keep coming up with ideas.
Brittany: You know, you, you talk a lot with your fans, you're pretty engaging on social media and on YouTube with people who are interested in you, like how do you inspire other people to share your work and to engage with it?
DDG: I like to keep, like, a close relationship with my fans and make them feel like, you know, I'm like a big brother or a homie or something like that. So, um, you know, it got to a point where my, my fans, I don't really like to call them fans and really call them supporters, but they like, they rock with me so much if I ask them to do something, as if like share this or get this many likes, or do this for me, they go do it. You know, cause they just wanna, they wanna help. It's nothing but a few clicks on your phone that support me. So I feel like, you know, I feel like they got that down, pat.
Brittany: So you just ask?
DDG: I just ask. I just tweet it, post it on Instagram or something. And I just ask them, or I ask them at the end of a vlog or anything and they, they let me know right then and there. They go ahead and repost it.
Brittany: That's incredible support.
DDG: Yeah. They love it.
Brittany: What advice would you give to other young people who, you know, who want to have a YouTube channel, and who are trying to develop an audience like yours?
DDG: I would say just stay consistent. That's my main advice to anybody that really want to do YouTube. I feel like consistency and just being different. You know what I mean? Consistency was my, was my come up because I was, I posted every single day. Two times a day, sometimes three times a day. It was one time, I posted 90 videos in one month.
[17:00]
Brittany: You said like 90, like nine zero?
DDG: Ninety vlogs. I posted seven videos in one day and they were all vlogs. It was just like my day split up into seven different things. It was crazy.
Brittany: What were you doing that day?
DDG: I was just vlogging like, at the end I ended up pranking my friend at the end on the seventh video. So I say consistency is like number one and just being different, you know, being yourself and having fun with it. You know, when YouTube is fun, that's when it's great. You know, and then you, on on the 21st you've figured out that you made a lot of money, so it's just like, it's like, it’s, it's a great job. I would say that.
Brittany: Why did you keep coming back to YouTube even though there are other platforms where you could release videos, or release vlogs or talk directly to your supporters? Like, why do you keep going back to YouTube?
[18:00]
DDG: In my opinion, there's no other platform that's in competition with YouTube. That's, that's honestly beneficial too, you know what I mean? That, that I'd benefit from. I feel like YouTube is top dog when it comes to social media and having a job at the same time.
Brittany: Well, DDG, thank you so much for sharing all of this with me today. It has been so good to meet you and talk to you.
[music in]
I'm rooting for you. I mean, I am really excited for your music career and, um, and you know, All the consistency and everything that you've been talking about. It really appears to have paid off and I wish you luck.
DDG: Thank you.
Brittany: Ah, I always love seeing fellow Michiganders succeeding in the world. I had so much fun chatting with DDG and hearing how he very strategically created content he knew would catch the attention of other hip hop artists. I also think the way that he creates video diaries or vlogs on YouTube is almost like a little reality TV show that he can direct and shoot for his fans.
And that kind of direct artist to fan communication has helped artists like DDG break into music on their own terms without the red tape or traditional industry gatekeepers. Now I know that DDG success is one of those one in a million type of stories, but I love it as an example of what's possible for creators who successfully use the platform to catapult themselves into new heights.
After my conversation with him, I was curious to learn more about YouTube's relationship with artists. Specifically, what opportunities exist on the platform for emerging artists and how is YouTube helping level the playing field for other black artists and musicians. To find out, I spoke with someone who has dedicated their whole career to promoting black music.
[music out]
[20:00]
Tuma: So my first name is Tuma. My last name is Basa. I'm the director of black culture and music, uh, at YouTube.
Brittany: We'll tell, tell us a little bit more about your specific role at YouTube and what you're hoping to achieve at YouTube?
Tuma: Um, so, uh, basically just all things black music, and, uh, advancing, not just the culture, but the economics and the relationships, of, uh, Hip Hop, R&B, Afrobeats, Dancehall. You can throw gospel in there. And I'm not saying, I mean incriminate myself. But, um, yeah. So, yeah, so, so just all things, what is considered in popular music, black music, well, music of black origin. UK, uh, UK rap and that scene and, you know, just, uh, just connecting and making it a smaller world you know.
Brittany: So, how did you come to work at YouTub um, in this specific role? It's honestly, I'll be honest with you, It's a role I've never heard of before, somebody being in charge of, like, I mean maybe black music, but like black culture at a company. That’s a really —
[21:00]
Tuma: Well, no, I just, I just threw that in there. You know what I mean? But it's not, but nobody is, nobody is, I'm not in charge of black music or black culture. It’s that there's, uh, a person in a leadership position that’s making sure that we do things right. We do things dope. You know what I mean? We're not doing things just to do things. It’s that we're making an impact. It’s that we're effective in terms of, of, of adding value to black music and black culture.
Brittany: So, you know, as you work at YouTube and, um, and you also are so engaged with music, which is a really big part of YouTube, specifically black music, um, which pretty much sets all trends. Right? What are your YouTube habits? Like? How do you watch YouTube? How do you engage with the app?
Tuma: Well personally?
Brittany: Yeah.
Tuma: Oh, oh my gosh. It's not an app. It's a world. It’s, it’s everything. And actually even did a, a social experiment, um, when I was on paternity leave. Remember that documentary “Supersize Me?”
[22:00]
Brittany: Yeah.
Tuma: Uh, where the guy is eating McDonald's and see what happened, et cetera, et cetera. So I did an experiment — I, I vainly called a Tuma-size me, — where I just watched a lot of YouTube right, right? I did all kinds of things. Like my morning walks, uh, play YouTube or YouTube music. Uh, when I would get home, watch all kinds of interviews and podcasts and music videos. A lot of music videos, uh, do games with my niece where she's like more than half my age. So I'll be putting her on to stuff, and she’d be putting me on to stuff via YouTube. It was like a battle, like via YouTube. A lot, a lot of live streams, uh, during that time.
Brittany: It seems like, it's like a, it seems like it's a major part of your life even just outside of work. Like it seems like a major part of your life.
[23:00]
Tuma: Oh, it is. Even if I didn't work there, it was already before. I, now, I just get the added benefit of a salary, you know what I mean? But it was already a part of my life.
And that's, that's something that we'd like to do. Like that, that actually said to me, is that people, people are so used to YouTube, that they start taking it for granted in terms of how much, uh, everyday cultural value it brings right?
Is that, that, that if I'm trying to learn how to DJ, like I bought this little, uh, Numark right here. Oh yeah. I'm not moving, lifting that. It’s heavy. It’s, it’s if I'm trying to learn how to DJ, that I'm going to YouTube to learn how to DJ, you know? If, there's so many things that people use it for, but because it's been a part of our lives for long time, I think —
Brittany: Just to jump off from that, talk to me about the current relationship between YouTube and could you give me, like, some examples of how YouTube helps musicians diversify their income streams?
Tuma: Well, first of all, we're second now in payouts to the music community.
Brittany: Interesting.
[24:00]
Tuma: Uh, yeah, hold on. The actual figure is more than $4 billion, artists have been paid more than $4 billion in the past 12 months.
Brittany: Wow. That's a lot of money.
Tuma: 30% of that 4 billion figure was generated from user generated content, you know.
Brittany: So it's obvious that there's money there to be made and that there are YouTube creators who are making it. How does YouTube help artists build their business?
Tuma: So, so, so, so YouTube and just the nature of the platform is more self-served right? So there's so much music, consuming the music, videos being uploaded every day, et cetera, et cetera. So even using features like premiere, right to schedule and say, “Hey, this is going to a premiere at this time,” creating a shared communal experience where the, your super fans, your day ones, the ones who want to before all their friends, right.
[25:00]
Brittany: It sounds like what, like, what they were able to do with YouTube was bring back like an aspect of music that made it really fun. You know, when I was growing up like 15 or 20 years ago, when you would tune into TRL or when you would tune into 106 & Park, just so you could see your favorite artists live at that exact moment, you know, premiering something new and totally different.
And, um, it's amazing that YouTube is able to still provide that experience for people who love music. So, um, I want to talk a little bit more about something that you said, um, like very recently. You know, you mentioned that, that Hip Hop should see YouTube as like a loophole, um, and thinking about YouTube as a marketing tool. Could you expand on that a little bit, like YouTube as a loophole? What did you mean when you said that?
Tuma: So the loophole meaning the opportunities didn't exist before if you weren't in the right cities, with the access to the A&Rs or the magazine editors or the, the, the, the talent scouts.
[26:00]
If you weren't in the right place, back in the day, you were screwed. So when I say loophole, it’s where I'm like, okay, I can do this on my own. I can build, I can build an audience. I can build some type of, um, experience or build my talent. Because guess what? You have to have the opportunity to develop the talent to even get to that place where you're actually good. You know what I mean? So it's basically saying, “Hey, I don't have to feel stuck. Let me, let me take matters into my own hands and grind.” And if it works out pow, it was meant to be, if it doesn't work out, then it wasn't as a result of lack of opportunities or lack or lack of talent, you know?
Brittany: Yeah, it sounds like it's, it provides like this toolbox that allows somebody who has a really good idea to turn it into something,like, viable without it being this, like, bank-breaking experience. Do you think that every musician should be on YouTube?
[27:00]
Tuma: Absolutely. Absolutely. I actually consider YouTube the institutional memory of 20th and 21st century music. The recorded music era, like the fact that you can find almost anything from, uh, anywhere on YouTube musi- wise. If, I’ll look up stuff like, uh, traditional African, uh, church songs, right. Uh, that's how I used to put my, my six-month-old to sleep. I'll literally look up songs that I knew the words like from church in Africa, right? And I would find them on YouTube and I could only find them on YouTube. So I do believe every artist should have their music on YouTube if they want to reach people. And this is not just for professional artists. I’m talking about amateur, people who just love it. Prosumer type of artists who...
[music in]
Who, who are, are, uh, take, may have another occupation, but take their music very seriously. And, uh, and it's, it's, it's just a place to yeah. Yes, I do. I believe that’s a yes, that's a yes or no question. That's my answer. Yes.
Brittany: [laughs] It was a good answer. It was a good answer.
Brittany: Well, that's it for this episode and for this season of The Upload. I hope you've enjoyed my conversation with Tuma, with DDG, and with all of the different YouTube creators we've heard from this season. When I was first approached to work on this podcast, I thought I had an idea of how creators earn a living and build a business on YouTube.
But obviously that was just the tip of the iceberg. I don't know if I'll be picking up a camera myself anytime soon, but I'm grateful to have learned a trick or two about what it takes to market yourself and your business, what it means to diversify your revenue streams and why, when you're a creator, it pays to keep your viewers top of mind.
[29:00]
[music out]
Above all, I learned a lot about what it means to nurture your passions and the importance of betting on yourself.
[music in]
Thanks so much for joining me on this podcast. If you enjoyed our show, please leave us a rating and review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. And if you haven't already hit that follow or subscribe button for the podcast, make sure to do so.
So you'll be the first to know if and when we are back for season two. In the meantime, you can follow me Brittany Luse on Twitter at B M Luse that's B M L U S E. Thank you so much for listening.
[29:47]
The Upload is a podcast by YouTube produced in partnership with National Public Media. Our Executive Producers are Brianna LaFleur and Erica Osher. Our supervising producer is Shannon Boerner. Our Lead Producer is Theresa Avila; Editing and Engineering by Alie Kilts; Production Assistance by Gurjit Kaur with support from Maddy Weinberg. Our logo was created by Jen Grottle and our music is by TimaLikesMusic. I’m your host Brittany Luse, and thank you for listening.
[music out]